What does it really take to build thriving, equitable communities? In this episode, we dive into the world of community economic development (CED)—what it is, how it’s evolved in the U.S., and whether market-based and other policies are actually making a difference. From federal policy to grassroots activities, we unpack how CED shapes real lives and neighborhoods. Joining us is Professor Priya Baskaran, Associate Professor of Law at American University’s Washington College of Law and director of the Entrepreneurship Law Clinic. With deep experience providing free legal support to small businesses and entrepreneurs, Professor Baskaran brings a unique, hands-on perspective to what CED looks like in practice—and why it matters now more than ever. Whether you're curious about policy, passionate about social change, or working to make a difference in your own community, this conversation is one you won’t want to miss. Professor Priya Baskaran’s American University WCL Faculty page - https://www.american.edu/wcl/faculty/baskaran.cfm American University WCL Entrepreneurship Law Clinic - https://www.american.edu/wcl/academics/experientialedu/clinical/theclinics/elc/ Professor Dana Thompson’s University of Michigan Law School Faculty page - https://michigan.law.umich.edu/faculty-and-scholarship/our-faculty/dana-thompson University of Michigan Law School Community Enterprise Clinic - https://michigan.law.umich.edu/academics/experiential-learning/clinics/community-enterprise-clinic-0
What does it really take to build thriving, equitable communities?
In this episode, we dive into the world of community economic development (CED)—what it is, how it’s evolved in the U.S., and whether market-based and other policies are actually making a difference. From federal policy to grassroots activities, we unpack how CED shapes real lives and neighborhoods.
Joining us is Professor Priya Baskaran, Associate Professor of Law at American University’s Washington College of Law and director of the Entrepreneurship Law Clinic. With deep experience providing free legal support to small businesses and entrepreneurs, Professor Baskaran brings a unique, hands-on perspective to what CED looks like in practice—and why it matters now more than ever.
Whether you're curious about policy, passionate about social change, or working to make a difference in your own community, this conversation is one you won’t want to miss.
Professor Priya Baskaran’s American University WCL Faculty page - https://www.american.edu/wcl/faculty/baskaran.cfm
American University WCL Entrepreneurship Law Clinic - https://www.american.edu/wcl/academics/experientialedu/clinical/theclinics/elc/
Professor Dana Thompson’s University of Michigan Law School Faculty page - https://michigan.law.umich.edu/faculty-and-scholarship/our-faculty/dana-thompson
University of Michigan Law School Community Enterprise Clinic - https://michigan.law.umich.edu/academics/experiential-learning/clinics/community-enterprise-clinic-0
Hello and welcome to the Common Wealth. Your podcast about community development in Detroit and other urban communities. This is your host, Dana Thompson, law professor and attorney. This podcast explores the various projects, laws, policies, ideas, and activities used to address the pressing issues facing Detroit and other urban communities. The Common Wealth will engage in thought provoking and lively discussions with a range of thought leaders, including those from the grassroots community, government academy, philanthropic sector and beyond.
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We will examine the projects, laws, policies and activities used to develop urban communities and whether these tools are able to create systemic change and economic justice in these communities.
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Welcome to the Common Wealth podcast. I'm your host, Dana Thompson, and this is your podcast about community development and economic justice issues in Detroit, other urban areas in Michigan and around the country. During today's podcast episode, we will explore the meaning of community economic development, the history of community economic development, and in particular, the history of federal policy around community economic development issues.
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The ability of some of these markets, market based policies to create change in communities. And we'll explore what seed work looks like in practice. And we're so fortunate today to have Professor Priya Baskaran as our guest on today's episode. Professor Baskaran is an associate professor of law at American University's Washington College of Law. She's the director of the Entrepreneurship Law Clinic, which provides free transactional legal support to small businesses and individual entrepreneurs.
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And I'm happy to say she's also a fellow Wolverine and a Michigan law alum.
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Go blue, go blue.
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So we're.
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Going to.
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Start our conversation today by looking at the meaning of community economic development. And we're going to briefly talk about the history. There is no universal meaning of community economic development, but I'd like you to tell me, how do you defi ne it?
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Sure. Well, fi rst of all, thank you so much for having me. When I think about community economic development, I think about it in my position as a member of a community, as a parent, and as somebody who has professional skills that can further the aims of my community. You know, I think about what it means to be part of that community, what it means to be somebody who earns a paycheck can contribute economically, and also someone who has power in some spheres and who doesn't have power in some spheres.
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And all of the things that sort of make me a person and a member of that community and the way that I interact with it. All of those are part of community, economic development. And so what I mean by that is that community economic development is centered on the hope of making a place, not just a geographic place, but an actual place where people live, a place of joy, a place where people can grow, where their children can grow, where they can age and place, where they can get health care, where they can access schools, where they can access whatever brings them joy in their spare time, whether that's a community garden or the opportunity
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to walk or play a, you know, Frisbee or the just opportunity to enjoy the arts. So it is the building of community and space in a way that is safe, healthy, vibrant and joyful. And to do that. It is very complicated, and we have to draw from this giant toolbox, right? This like spectrum of skills, people, resources and money in order to build, you know, this beautiful place, right?
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When a developer builds a gated community, they only have to think about the houses and then they get to import, right, the people who live there. But when a community creates itself and a vision for itself, everyone has to come to the table and fi gure out what compromises they're going to make, what tools they're going to use to build that amazing, sustainable space.
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And that is what community economic development is. The process, the journey.
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That's really a rich defi nition. And you were talking about a developer, and their focus is primarily on the economic development piece of it. Yes. So perhaps, you know, making money for their development, but with community economic development, the community input is a key aspect of the work.
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That's right. There have been many iterations of community economic development. Sometimes it's a little c big economic development. But that's the core of community economic development, is that the community has to be at the table and has to be, in some ways, prioritizing what it is that makes sense for their community. And honestly, they're often grappling with the consequence of whatever that community is lacking.
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So for them not to be driving the conversation, driving where the investment happens, you know, and instead having some outsider are deciding, okay, you know like what you really need in this community which will make a big splash. Raid is a brand new, you know, Main Street commerce driven, you know, arcade or strip mall. I mean, what they really need is a new water system.
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Whereas the kinds of tensions that community economic development is really centered around amplifying the community and making sure that they have a voice in addressing that and acknowledging that, sure, there are politicians in the community, there are foundations in the community. There are, you know, there are employers and business folks in the community, you know, but they are not necessarily the representatives of the community, right?
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That the Trinity is in of itself a very important actor, even if they are not seen as important by bank accounts. Right? That's right. Political structures.
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Absolutely. So we're going to talk in a little bit about some of the tools in the toolkit. But before we talk about that, I'd like you to talk a bit about the history of the development of this movement.
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Defi nitely. So I as you mentioned, and, a professor, which is just a big word for teacher, and every teacher was once a student, and all students know you can go nowhere in life without your notes. That's right. And thanks to technology, my notes are now on my phone. Great. I'm going to pull them off. Absolutely. Make sure that I don't miss any points on this pop quiz.
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So.
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Absolutely.
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So, you know, when we think about community economic development, we can, you know, we can take it back to, you know, manifest destiny being the opposite of community economics. But, you know, I think an excellent place to start is with the converse nations that were being had between Du Bois and, Booker T Washington, because one of the things that's really important, since we're in, in Detroit, is to acknowledge that an important part of the conversation surrounding community, economic development, regardless of whether we're having them in Detroit, Michigan, or in West Virginia, where I used to work.
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Right.
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Race and Jim Crow and the legacy of civil rights plays an incredible role in the construction of poverty, both in places like West Virginia and Appalachia and in, you know, what we considered to
be, you know, the, you know, black industrial belt cities. Yep. So, you know, those conversations that they were happening centered on the like, how do we envision economics right for them?
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It was this question of economics. And like totally separate self-suffi ciency or economics is tied to like political agency inclusion and change. Right. But either way, there was this acknowledgment that economics were inseparable from this idea of like personhood and equality and equity and the right to live and thrive. Right. And in the absence of that, when you have only a paycheck, right, and you have only a paycheck, you do not have this like other bundle of rights that makes you a person.
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And so, you know, the big question that we have been grappling with instead, and that we see historically, is how do you give people the bundle of rights when the thing that you are most unwilling to give them is like power and agency? And so we really see this with, you know, like, you know, with these conversations, I think of, of really, you know, Du Bois concern of like, if we do not take power, if we do not take agency, like, right, will we ever get it right?
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And I think a lot of the next evolution that we start seeing over, like the civil rights movement is really the civil rights movement attempting to combine, you know, political agency with economic agency because you cannot have one without the other. And then you even see this been involved in the war on poverty and the Economic Opportunity Commissions, you know, sort of trying to set up these like grassroots projects right, where you are giving hopefully individuals the opportunity to create, you know, change within their community the opportunity to start job creation programs, you know, like work, work diversion programs for youth.
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Right. The creation of AmeriCorps. You know, the opportunity to kind of holistically invest in these communities and all these different ways and the hope that they are actually guiding the work, right? Because it's like locally rooted and anchored.
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In and and I should just say the war on poverty was Lyndon Johnson's.
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Right? Yes. Like his, his, his like being project. Right. But when you see like time and time again defi nitely documented in urban communities. But again, you also see documented in West Virginia, is this like tension the minute it seems like the local grassroots community is going to have some agency that checks the political machine and checks the power structures, you know, all of a sudden it seems like, you know, like the poor are too powerful.
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You know, they're controlling their own narrative. They're controlling where the money goes. They're controlling the projects that they think are important, which maybe we don't want. Right? And there's this amazing history teacher who was in charge of one of these projects in, southern West Virginia, in Mingo County. And he wrote a great book about his experience called they Will Cut Off Your Project, which completely refers to the local political elites when they started building a cooperative grocery store, when they started investing in the schools.
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When they started essentially taking true political ownership and action. Yes, they did. You know, to honestly, it it got quite literally violent. You know, there was, you know, there was violence to try to prevent the project from happening. And you see similar narratives occurring in, you know, in New York, you know, in Chicago with the EEOC projects, you know, of saying, oh, they're taking too much agency over which direction they want these projects to go in.
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But that is the heart of said, right. It's not just an economic, you know, handout or whatever economic engine makes sense for the powers that be. It is what makes sense for the community and who other than the community to make those choices.
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Right. Now, in, you talked about a little bit about the war on poverty, which was, a set of federal policies that that administration developed in the 1960s. What did you see happen in the 70s and 80s? With respect to the development of federal policy or, to a certain extent, a retrenchment?
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Yes, yes. I think that there was a huge shift just ideologically away from any sort of broad government support for any kind of poverty program. So they didn't want to allocate the funds, let alone have a discussion about political agency, right? I mean, this is when we start to see narratives
about the welfare queen. Yeah, those types of things making their way into the, you know, sort of the general ephemera of society.
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Right. And all of a sudden we go from this idea of political agency and economic power to maligning narratives about poor folks in general, which it's not like Lyndon Johnson's era did not include. It's just, yeah, an escalation of.
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It, especially under Nixon.
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Yes. Right. And then from there, you start seeing the, proliferation of market based investment strategies, which still continue, to today. Right. So these are sort of tax incentives to sort of kind of bring money into the like, dilapidated, areas. Right? There's like things through like the through list. Yes. Seeing that and instead, instead of the community being able to participate in that, they're sort of the recipients of whatever gets dropped into their community that, you know, that businesses are essentially bidding on.
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Right, were able to get these funds to be able to do, whether that's, affordable housing or like revitalizing a downtown.
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Right.
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Or, you know, competing for the designation of something called an opportunity zone because it provides for, you know, better loans and competitive bidding. You. Yeah, to be able to put your essentially, you know, your pet projects in regardless of whether or not that is what's going to help the community.
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That's right. Yeah. You know, it's really interesting to see that from the 70s with Nixon starting to take back federal money for these programs. That did put more of the power in community development corporations and in communities. But then start to take those funds back, or away from those organizations. And then, you know, through the, the Reagan era, which, further reduced funding.
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And then, you know, you look at, the Clinton era, which started also to develop more of these market based strategies and, and change the focus from, really the ability for the community to speak for itself and an understanding that there were wider issues that were wider federal policies. We'll talk about like, you know, redlining and other policies like that.
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But then, you know, looking at, you know, really trying to reward private investors with these market based strategies like the you talked about the low income housing tax credit or the new market tax credits. Let's talk about those policies. But also more broadly, the toolkit that you talked about that could he uses because a lot of federal, the federal responses to community disinvestment have been more recently using new market tax credits and other similar policies that are market based but not really community focused.
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Yes.
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Let's talk about what you think about those strategies versus other tools in the toolkit.
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I take I hate them. Yeah. So I, I think, I think when I think about these tools, but I think about it as a, what is the problem that we're trying to fi x. Right. And the problem is that there are communities like Detroit, like Appalachia, right. Like Flint, you know, that have been, you know, like Gary, Indiana, right, that have been there sites of two things to big sort of phenomena.
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One is that almost all of them have been the site of some form of mono economy or like corporate dominance, right, where a company can kind of push its own interests forward to the detriment of
the community, capture the local political machine. Right. And make sure that they're cutting the best deals. Right. They're getting the best benefi ts.
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And then, you know, sort of pitch the what's good for X Corporation is good for the community. But no one in the community is fully weighing in on that. And what are the actual benefi ts that you're getting from that? Right. And I'll paint a fuller picture of what that looks like. But then the second phenomenon is that the government, which should be technically balancing the scales when you have big money, big power, big employer on your side is sort of, in fact, creating its own agenda, right where it's disenfranchizing the community in different ways.
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And often it's very explicitly with the biggest government, the biggest government investment that we have seen in the US has been, you know, the the programs, the New Deal programs. Right. And they explicitly excluded black communities. And like poor communities, right. Specifi cally poor rural communities did not benefi t from those programs.
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And for those who may not know what the New Deal is, you could briefly explain that.
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Okay, so the new deal was a set of programs put in place by FDR, Franklin Delano Roosevelt. I'm really on the hot seat. Yeah. I hope my my high school teachers are proud of. Oh, no memory skills? Yes. And so they included everything from, you know, the, Home Loan Corporation that essentially backed, the development of the suburbs for white and white adjacent folks.
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Right, so that they could build and buy affordable housing. It let townships and municipalities essentially bundle those loans and and levy incredible amounts of municipal bonds to build new schools, water systems. Right. Social.
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Security and.
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Social security, right. It was it was like a whole set of programs that essentially built what we consider to be modern America and the American Dream. And unfortunately, if you were black, you were not a part of that dream. Right. By design. So, one of the biggest ways we build wealth as Americans historically has been homeownership. And black Americans were excluded from all of those programs that allowed them to, you know, buy homes or even, you know, buy homes adjacent to the areas that were considered, you know, loan worthy.
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That's right. And that's what redlining meant. It essentially marked everywhere on a map where, you know, there were essentially black residents, were undesirable immigrants in the early days. Right. And so if you could only buy a house in those areas because you were black and there were things like racially restrictive covenants that prevented you from buying a house in Genesee County.
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If you were in Flint, didn't matter how good those union wages were at the GM plant, because you were not going to be able to move to that neighborhood, right? Right. So you despite the fact that you might have gone to war for your country, despite the fact that you pay taxes, you are not the benefi ciary of those federal programs right now.
00:21:05:24 - 00:21:25:16
Fast forward, you know, decades and decades and decades. And the person who did get to benefi t from those programs was able to send their kid to the U of M, right, using that home equity. Right. Was able to build a life, establish their students, you know, their kids as students and then as like working adults out in the world, right?
00:21:25:22 - 00:22:01:15
That's generations of wealth that black Americans in Michigan did not have access to. Right. And unfortunately, that story is replicated again, again all across the United States. So that type of actual extraction right from these communities by a government that literally deemed black Americans not credit worthy. Your government, right, is that that created this like infrastructure for these places, right.
00:22:01:15 - 00:22:23:13
These like disadvantage geographically disadvantage spaces. Right. That could not that became sort of deeply linked with race and not then fi gure out a way to come out of it. Because if your own
government is doing it, like why would Flint stay in, you know, why would GM stay in Flint, right? They're going to they're going to leave.
00:22:23:13 - 00:22:50:10
And they sort of corporations have long leveraged race to sort of their own benefi t, right. As it's, as it's been useful to them to kind of bring in, bring in workers, right, to bust a union, right to, you know, to essentially ensure that, they're putting a certain message forward, right, by only promoting certain people up in the ranks based on race.
00:22:50:10 - 00:23:00:03
So, like, those two forces, like put together have essentially created these communities in need, right? Yes. And it took decades. It didn't happen overnight.
00:23:00:04 - 00:23:00:17
That's right.
00:23:00:21 - 00:23:23:12
This is a this is like a it's like the DNA, right? It's like a double helix. It keeps building and building and building and building over time. Right. So then you come in with an Allen wrench of a loan tool and say, you know, what's going to fi x this? You know what's going to fi x, a literal half century of lack of investment in Flint, Michigan.
00:23:23:12 - 00:23:43:09
I'm going to put an opportunity zone here so that you can build a bowling alley, you know, and it will be totally what the city needs without ever asking anybody. Is that what the city needs, or does the city need to replace its pipe? Does the city need new schools? Right? And who are the people that are weighing in on this decision?
00:23:43:10 - 00:23:50:00
That's right. That's that is the real failing of I think the market tools is that this is a problem that the market.
00:23:50:00 - 00:23:51:04
Created, right?
00:23:51:06 - 00:24:15:15
Market and the government created this problem when they were devaluing these communities. Right. And now there's a million problems. So you can't just expect the market to fi x to fi x these things. Right. You have to come together and sort of allocate resources. And the only people who know how those resources should be allocated have been disenfranchized politically. That's intentionally right.
00:24:15:15 - 00:24:38:00
So that's the that is why community economic development is actually the solution, because it empowers the community to stand up and say, no, this is where we need a lot of things. And I think this is my last point on this, because I think it's actually an important point. I, I attended a talk by this incredible organizer, in Ferguson.
00:24:38:15 - 00:25:06:06
And he was telling this story about how in Ferguson, you know, the national media coverage was so focused exclusively on the policing problem. But then if you were on the ground or if you were a resident for Ferguson, what you inherently understood that the policing problem was so linked to the economic deprivation that the city was facing.
00:25:06:18 - 00:25:32:04
And he told a story about how one month he was stopped 16 times because down the street from his apartment building and given a ticket at the stop sign that this cop just waited there. Right. And it was because the city was in such dire fi nancial straits, right, that they had turned to overpolicing. Right. And then it led to this, like cascading other effects, right?
00:25:32:04 - 00:25:57:23
Where we don't talk about the economic deprivation because it is uncomfortable. Right. Think about devaluing our own citizens like this. But that is that is why we then need to think about economic investment and power and agency as part of the same narrative. That is the actual solution. And that's what the Ed focus is on agency, power and economic as a trifecta.
00:25:58:02 - 00:26:45:00
Absolutely. Yeah. We had a, really interesting conversation in a previous episode with community members who are impacted by the construction of the Gordie Howe Bridge, and they talked about
how the government agencies and those in power that were creating this bridge didn't initially come and talk to the people in the community. And if they had, they would have been able to come up with more progressive, benefi cial, plans for the the bridge construction and things that wouldn't have impacted their, these residents so disastrously.
00:26:45:18 - 00:27:01:02
So, yeah, having that conversation with the community is so important. And can you talk about some community engaged projects that you have seen or that you've been involved in?
00:27:01:08 - 00:27:15:22
Yeah. So I think one of the reasons that community economic development also doesn't get a lot of play is that, you know, now, this is no shade to Costco because I love Costco. But like, we are too obsessed with scale and size.
00:27:15:24 - 00:27:16:11
Yes.
00:27:16:12 - 00:27:39:22
So sometimes we think of the only successful project is like the biggest project in the world, right? You know, that we can we can essentially grow to scale and multiply. And, you know, I'm taking it to Detroit and I'm, you know, I'm taking it to Gary and I'm taking it to Buffalo. Right? And each of those places has material realities and priorities and community needs, right.
00:27:39:22 - 00:28:08:13
That make them a unique place with unique needs. And so I think focusing on small projects is actually the like the best way to illustrate great community economic development projects. So my favorite example is always mutual aid. And so what we discovered during the pandemic, right, is the health in our social infrastructure was and we're seeing mass layoffs, right.
00:28:09:06 - 00:28:37:12
Lots of people unable to make rent, unable to access medicine, unable to access health care. We're seeing the impact on students, and on families. And you saw at least I defi nitely saw in DC and Maryland mutual aid organizations, neighbors and community members actually stepping up to sort of help fi ll in the gaps for one another. So, you know, in my work, we represented a mutual aid group that recognized, what their commute, their community actually had.
00:28:37:14 - 00:29:12:14
Tons of families with young children, previously had not been as visible, you know, because they're all sort of raw compartmentalize and realizing that there was a need to create a diaper bank, you know, a diaper bank system and a diaper delivery system for these families. Right. And then also the other priority that came up was utility bills that people were having a hard time paying certain utility bills, and there were some programs that would provide a limited amount of utility assistance, but they generally didn't cover things like cell phones, which is how people did everything.
00:29:12:17 - 00:29:43:12
Right. So the, you know, the community and mutual aid organization came together and said, these are our priorities. These are how we're going to raise money. This is how we're going to, you know, allocate that money. We're making a decision collectively. As members of the community. So it's sort of this idea of like we are making these decisions, not in the sort of hierarchical charity model that you see a lot of nonprofi ts where someone kind of swoops in from the outside and then decides how the funds are allocated, because that's what looks best.
00:29:43:12 - 00:29:45:17
And perhaps a grant report. Right?
00:29:45:19 - 00:29:46:14
Right.
00:29:46:16 - 00:30:09:07
To, you know, in like a big splashy ad, right? A political campaign, literally this small thing ensuring that these people have diapers, they're able to you know, have telemedicine appointments for their children because their cell phone bills, their cellphone bill has been paid. And then they made that decision collectively. That's a huge win.
00:30:09:07 - 00:30:09:21
Yes.
00:30:09:21 - 00:30:34:21
It feels so small because who going to write about that. And they're going to say, well, how many diapers did you deliver? You know, and how many, you know, like how many people were actually actually positively impacted. But doesn't making change on a small community level, how is that not meaningful? Right. We live in federal policy and in grantmaking world, and even in academic world.
00:30:34:21 - 00:30:54:23
We live and look at things in like this 10,000ft view. Yep. When we study things. But what we fail to understand is that people live on the ground, right? Yes, the change has to happen on the ground. So I think those types of organizations where they bring together power resource allocation and accountability, right?
00:30:55:00 - 00:30:56:08
Yes.
00:30:56:10 - 00:30:58:16
Yes. Those are the successful projects.
00:30:58:16 - 00:31:46:12
Absolutely, absolutely. I think that's an important point to remember, that the scale doesn't necessarily matter. It's the fact that you are empowering people in the community to determine what is important and what are the solutions needed to get them to their ultimate goal. Not a top down approach. And, you know, there projects that we've worked on in the Community Enterprise clinic that, were smaller scale, like helping clients who are developing pocket parts or helping clients who are bringing internet to the North End of Detroit and Hamtramck.
00:31:47:03 - 00:32:21:23
And those things may seem small to some, but to us, they're extremely important and signifi cant. And probably the largest project that we worked on was, the Detroit Food Commons project. And we had our conversation with Malik Yekini. In a previous episode where, you know, they're bringing a grocery store to the north end of Detroit and bringing community space and, you know, bringing jobs and food and, you know, all of these resources that the community needs there.
00:32:21:23 - 00:32:51:19
So, I think that's a great point, just to focus on what is it that we're actually bringing and, and the fact that the community is empowered in bringing it. Yep. So let's shift and just talk, about, you know, the solidarity economy. I want to I want to talk about that and how that ties in with the meaning of community economic development.
00:32:52:10 - 00:33:06:09
Because that's a different way. I think it ties in very well with mutual aid organizations. But can you defi ne what the solidarity economy is and how it ties into community economic development?
00:33:06:15 - 00:33:32:21
I'm going to give a layperson's defi nition of the solidarity. Yes, because there are, there are seven factors that sometimes get kind of tossed about at this idea of the solidarity economy. But at its core, right. If we think about, if we think about everything that essentially goes into the economy, sort of, you know, like the gro, like the little red hen, I have small children.
00:33:32:21 - 00:33:34:03
So. Yes, yes.
00:33:34:05 - 00:34:00:00
Of the the wheat and the mill and the ultimate, you know, the sugar to make the cake. And like all of the different pieces that, that actually make our economy run right. The idea of them all, connecting in a way that is sustainable and not harmful. And thinking about what are the institutions that allow that to happen.
00:34:00:04 - 00:34:26:04
And so I, you know, it's so hard sometimes because these concepts are so radical to frame it. So sometimes, sadly, the best way to think about the solidarity economy is to think about the anti solidarity economy of right, which is like a corporate monopoly. Right. So Andrew Carnegie was right, was sort of touted as this incredible, you know, strategic business genius.
00:34:26:17 - 00:34:50:07
And one of my favorite things that he did is he was all about what's called, vertical integration. Right. So he's like, okay, I make steel. What does it take to make steel? I need coal, you know, I need railroads to get the coal. I need, you know, the raw materials. He was like, what I'm going to try to do is I'm going to try to buy all of that stuff and put it under one business.
00:34:50:07 - 00:35:15:04
Right. So then I control everything. I have all the raw materials, I control the means of production. I control the land on which the mines sit. Right? I, I control the means of transport, which he actually did not manage to do because railroads are too powerful. Ring. But you know, everything that I can essentially swallow and keep under my wheelhouse.
00:35:15:08 - 00:35:33:19
And then I control everything, and I direct everything, and I can extract as much value out of it as possible. Right. And then what? I'm. It's great. And he's like, and my workers are part of this. Right. I'm going to bring them in and I'm going to bring them in as a judicious mixture into the towns that I built, the colonial towns.
00:35:33:19 - 00:35:50:19
Right. Which means I'm going to have black miners. I'm going to have a bunch of miners that don't speak English and that we can't unionize, and they're going to live in the houses in which I build for them, and they're only going to be able to pay, and they're going to go to school in the schools I built for them and go to church and the churches I built for them.
00:35:50:24 - 00:36:16:11
And the only way they can buy things is by going to the store. I don't know, Closed environment. Right. Like that's what vertical integration is really about, that consolidation, the solidarity economy is the opposite of that. Okay. This is the concept that each part of this economy is something that should be thought of as working towards the whole.
00:36:16:13 - 00:36:47:08
Right, okay. The solidarity economy actually exist to create balance, right? Exists not to be extractive and exists to help people within the economy live like, equitable and dignifi ed lives. Right? So that means fair wages. It means non harmful extractive practices in terms of the environment. You know, it means you don't grow to scale. If that's not what's good for the the solidarity economy and the community.
00:36:47:10 - 00:37:10:05
Right. Yep. And so it is putting the people fi rst rather than putting the bottom line. Right. Extracting as much money as possible fi rst. And so you see this like the an easy way to illustrate this is some is
like, a worker cooperative. Right. So like generally you earn a wage, you get a W-2, you do what the boss tells you to do.
00:37:10:05 - 00:37:31:14
And so if the boss cuts your hours, you're screwed. If the boss cut someone else's hours and puts that person's work on your plate and you have one and a half jobs, right, but only the pay of one, you know, that's like you don't have any negotiation ability for that, right? Unless you're in a union, in which case there are other things that might be able to help that.
00:37:31:16 - 00:37:55:13
But the solidarity economy, the idea is that you get a voice at the table, right? Right. You a worker cooperative. The idea is that the workers are also the owners of that business. So like if you are a worker and also an owner, when you take on something, start when you take on that role. The concept is that you get some sort of say in the management on some level.
00:37:55:13 - 00:38:12:08
Right. So you're not essentially just like compressed and crushed. And you're not essentially subordinated for whatever the investor wants you to do. Right. Like you are more important. So when we see this like usually, you know, we always hear about shareholders and they get to vote and the shareholders voted and they said we got to close a factory.
00:38:12:08 - 00:38:32:00
So I'm so sorry, Bob. You know. But here it's like, well the shareholders don't get a vote. They're just the money right? Or rather like the worker is a shareholder. So they get to decide, okay, rather than closing the factory, can everybody take a pay cut so that we don't all have to lose our jobs, right? Right. So it's that kind of it's that kind of like accountability.
00:38:32:21 - 00:38:43:14
And again, the voice of the individual or the community that's being impacted is crucial to the decision making.
00:38:43:15 - 00:39:02:04
Yes. The solidarity economy at its core, the concept of the conversation we've been having about political power and agency and economic power, are inseparable in the South Army. They are two things that are forever combined.
00:39:02:06 - 00:39:38:03
And ultimately to accomplish equity for these disinvested communities. Right? For people of color, for everybody. Right. But recognizing that, equity and not having all of the resources or all of the power or whatever is the ultimate goal, okay. Which is what said if it's done well, should accomplish.
00:39:38:03 - 00:40:00:11
Yes. That and I think that the solidarity economy is one of the tools in the toolbox. Right. It is part of the of the goals of Kte right to move in that direction. And it is one of the things that is used, right, to sort of transition from, you know, typical kind of extractive big business right into something that is more sustainable.
00:40:00:11 - 00:40:19:11
Yeah. And there is a lot more renewed interest in that in that model. Right. Especially as we're seeing the costs writ large to the environment when we grow to scale and grow aggressively. Right. And, and that we are continuing to widen the inequality gap without thinking about doing something differently.
00:40:19:15 - 00:40:45:15
Yeah. Well, just picking up on that point, as we are moving to the end of our conversation, how do you think we can encourage people to understand the importance of in adopting a more inclusive approach into, the said toolbox and moving away from this market based approach?
00:40:45:17 - 00:41:20:00
So I think, I think the fi rst thing that is very, very important is to ask the question, where is the community? If you fi nd yourself, and I hope you do at the table to influence a project, whether you are, a politician or an entrepreneur or a funder, a funder that you will ask for, we're an academic institution that is doing a study.
00:41:20:02 - 00:41:54:17
Ask the question, where is the community? What is their engagement and role in this project? And if you are not seeing an advocate for their inclusion, I think that is the central and important principle. The other thing is to approach new topics with the curiosity that is required, right? So to commit to
learning about the concepts of KDD and the solidarity economy and thinking, is there a way to plug this into my existing work?
00:41:54:17 - 00:42:25:05
Is there a way to learn more about this, to have these conversations? Because chances are, that the community members are having some of these conversations. All of the work that I do, is community led. You know, I am a terrible community organizer. It is not a skillset I possess, but I am very grateful to have worked with, you know, social entrepreneurs who are already connected and active in their community and drive the conversation.
00:42:25:07 - 00:42:49:17
Every cooperative that I have worked with, you know, every other solidarity economy project I've worked with has come from the community because they are there and they are on the ground. They are seeing the need and they are generating the solutions. Right. And I'm just one of the technical experts who can put the pen to paper, right, and help, you know, shepherd the the things that need to happen, like a regulation standpoint.
00:42:50:07 - 00:43:12:11
And so if the community is not at the table, then you cannot have that valuable insight. So we are in this incredibly powerful position because of the hierarchy, because the degree is in the institutions and everything else. So it's an opportunity for us to make tremendous change. And honestly, that's part of, you know, that's part of the larger anti-racist objectives of us.
00:43:12:12 - 00:43:41:04
Yes. Also. Right. So sort of the understanding of anti-racism is that it it is, you know, that the laws have created these racial structures and hierarchies, where groups of people are essentially subordinated along the lines of identity. Right? Yes, yes, identity can be tribal membership, right? Class. It can be gender. Right. So there can be multiple points. Right.
00:43:41:06 - 00:43:45:09
And and no one gets to be a bystander.
00:43:45:09 - 00:43:46:08
Sure.
00:43:46:10 - 00:44:17:19
When we see that they're the result of unjust laws like redlining. Right. Or like, you know, new market tax credits have created areas, pockets of deep disadvantage. And we are suddenly at the table for new investment strategies or who should be mayor. Right. Or like a political meeting. This is an opportunity, right, to sort of be anti-racist and say, okay, there are these harmful historic policies that have happened.
00:44:17:24 - 00:44:37:12
How are we going to usher in change? We must name and acknowledge the harmful things that have happened. Yeah, and then work towards structural change to do that. And the people who are always at the bottom, which is why it's called grassroots, are the. Yes. And so fi guring out ways that we can bring them into the table is the number one thing we could do.
00:44:37:12 - 00:45:28:14
Absolutely. And the last question that I'll ask you, which may be a bit of a challenging question, but given the times that we're in and the attacks on, diversity, equity and inclusion and anti-racism, but understanding that having an anti-racist approach and an approach that's deeply understanding of the historical harms and, you know, the racism that created these issues that we're dealing with, how do we, effectively advocate for the community perspective being a part of the equation?
00:45:28:14 - 00:45:32:24
And when there's so much pushback on these communities?
00:45:33:01 - 00:45:58:15
Yeah, it's so wild that anybody would be anti anti-racist, right. When we think about if you're like, I don't want to be anti-racist, but like sir, have you thought about the words So that is such a great question. And I think I think one of the things that happens is to understand that it is very diffi cult to reach across the aisle.
00:45:59:17 - 00:46:28:12
And so sometimes the only thing you can do is make small change, right. Support the community. And then to bring people who are interested in to the fold. Right. And expand out slowly. Yeah. That ripple effect is the only way that we achieve change. I, I listen to a really great, lecture at the clinical conference with Derek for now.
00:46:28:24 - 00:46:56:10
She was saying, when abolitionists have conversations, we are having these conversations and building the platform among ourselves. I am not trying to convince anybody who isn't ready. And I thought that that was so important to hear, right, that we are building the platform on the community level, on the small level, and as it gains momentum and traction, maybe rather we fi nd connections with other communities and solidarity.
00:46:56:10 - 00:47:17:17
Yes, in other places. Right. And yes, network. And that only way we can kind of build that transformative change, right, is by creating networks of impacted folks. Right. And then I'll be part of these communities of change. We're committed to seeing, right, that perhaps the power structure is disinterested for a reason. So they're never going to come to the table.
00:47:17:17 - 00:47:21:05
But perhaps if we are so big, they may not have a choice.
00:47:21:10 - 00:47:30:23
Absolutely. Well, thank you so much. This has been just a really rich and valuable conversation. I appreciate you joining me today.
00:47:30:24 - 00:47:31:24
Thank you so much.
00:47:32:05 - 00:47:43:13
This has been the Common Wealth Podcast. The Common Wealth is a production of the University of Michigan, Detroit Center and the University of Michigan Law School's Community Enterprise Clinic.
00:47:43:15 - 00:48:06:09
The Common Wealth is hosted and executive produced by me, Dana Thompson. It is executive produced by Fiona Shep. The third, with production support from Tiffany Chang and Akiko Fortier.