Community development organizations play a vital role in advancing renewable energy projects that promote environmental sustainability, reduce energy costs, create economic opportunity, and strengthen local communities. In this episode, host, attorney, and University of Michigan law professor Dana Thompson speaks with Dr. Tony Reames, Professor at the University of Michigan School for Environment and Sustainability. Dr. Reames is a former Presidential appointee in the Biden-Harris Administration, where he held several senior leadership roles within the U.S. Department of Energy focused on energy justice and community-based clean energy initiatives. She is also joined by Mary Braun, Green Projects Director at the North End Woodward Community Coalition (NEWCC), a Detroit-based social justice and community development organization dedicated to equitable systems change, community ownership, and neighborhood wealth building. Together, they discuss how community development organizations are leveraging renewable energy projects to advance climate and energy justice, expand economic opportunity, and ensure that communities share in the benefits of the clean energy transition. Using Detroit as an example, they explore lessons that can help communities across the country develop more equitable and sustainable approaches to renewable energy. This conversation offers valuable insights for nonprofit leaders, community developers, policymakers, and anyone interested in the intersection of renewable energy, equity, and community impact.
Community development organizations play a vital role in advancing renewable energy projects that promote environmental sustainability, reduce energy costs, create economic opportunity, and strengthen local communities.
In this episode, host, attorney, and University of Michigan law professor Dana Thompson speaks with Dr. Tony Reames, Professor at the University of Michigan School for Environment and Sustainability. Dr. Reames is a former Presidential appointee in the Biden-Harris Administration, where he held several senior leadership roles within the U.S. Department of Energy focused on energy justice and community-based clean energy initiatives. She is also joined by Mary Braun, Green Projects Director at the North End Woodward Community Coalition (NEWCC), a Detroit-based social justice and community development organization dedicated to equitable systems change, community ownership, and neighborhood wealth building.
Together, they discuss how community development organizations are leveraging renewable energy projects to advance climate and energy justice, expand economic opportunity, and ensure that communities share in the benefits of the clean energy transition. Using Detroit as an example, they explore lessons that can help communities across the country develop more equitable and sustainable approaches to renewable energy. This conversation offers valuable insights for nonprofit leaders, community developers, policymakers, and anyone interested in the intersection of renewable energy, equity, and community impact.
How is energy policy set in Michigan? The governor kind of lays out their energy policy framework that is then passed to the legislature. Mhm. Who creates energy law? Um, and they often direct the Public Service Commission, who is directly regulating the utilities, um, to kind of set out the rules that utilities have to follow. Welcome to the Commonwealth. Lively and informative conversations with change makers and thought leaders, from grassroots leaders to policymakers about what's actually working to build fair, thriving urban communities in Detroit and beyond. I'm your host, Dana Thompson. I think you'll find today's conversation engaging and timely. I'm speaking with Tony Reames, a professor at the University of Michigan's School for Environment and Sustainability and a presidential appointee in the Biden-Harris administration. We're also speaking with Mary Braun, the green projects director at the North End Woodward Community Coalition. Thank you both for joining me today. Thanks for having us. Absolutely. So, Mary, you are the green projects director at the North End Woodward Community Coalition. Tell me about your role. Yeah. Um, thanks. So new CC is. We affectionately call it um is a small social justice community based organization. Um, we serve the North end neighborhood of Detroit, Highland Park and Hamtramck, and we work on building equitable systems. My role is mainly focused on the environmental and energy related projects that new CC implements. Um, we have outdoor science centers paired with pollinator habitats that we're implementing to help both Reduce um, flooding through green stormwater infrastructure, as well as to educate residents about, um, what they can do at home to reduce flooding. Um, we have bike repair stations that we install throughout our service area to encourage the use of alternative transportation, uh, Wi-Fi enabled solar charging stations that we install basically a solar panel with a small battery on a pole that folks can plug in their devices to charge when the grid goes down. And then, um, the big initiative that we're working on right now is our Community Energy Alliance, which, um, we'll talk more about later, but it's, it's basically our take on community based solar. Wonderful. Thank you. So Tony, you have a career that's been focused on environmental and energy justice, um, at the university as well as in government. I'd like to hear a little bit more About the seas clinic at the university, as well as your research projects that you are working on. Yeah, thank you so much, Dana. And I love the stories that Mary talked about in UCC. We're going to have to connect after this for sure. So when I returned back to the university in twenty twenty four, I took over a fairly new initiative that the school for Environment and Sustainability launched in twenty twenty one called the Seas Sustainability Clinic in Detroit. It was a recognition that the school and our colleagues and students had a lot of projects focused on sustainability and climate in the city, but they weren't coordinated. And so the clinic was launched as a way to both create that hub, as well as think about new projects and how we could do deeper long term engagement. And so we were funded by the Kresge Foundation. It was right after the large flood. So one of the core projects was working with Jefferson East and the Jefferson Chalmers neighborhood to focus on flooding resilience, particularly from a planning perspective. We have a space in downtown Detroit now, so an actual clinic that people can come to. Um, and we work with organizations across the city as well as city government, um, on all things environmental justice. Um, we also do circular economy. Um, so we have a lot of folks that are interested in composting and material reuse. Um, and so those are kind of our focus areas. Wonderful. Tony, this question is for you. We hear about renewable energy and alternative energy. And sometimes those terms are used interchangeably. Can you explain what those terms mean and how they're different. Yeah. So I'll talk a little bit about how I got into this space. So I'm not an energy professional and energy. I came at it from, uh, kind of a policy and community organizing perspective, um, while I was working on a degree in public administration in Kansas City, I started this work during the economic recession of zero eight oh nine. And so there was money in the Economic Recovery Act for purchasing lots to deal with storm water. Um, and so people could buy a lot next to them, um, build a rain garden and get some support for that. Um, so I started out doing interviews on, um, if people wanted to build rain gardens. Everybody kept talking about their energy and they kept saying, I heard there was money from Obama for energy. And so, um, so I went to my advisor and I was like, there's something about energy. Um, and I found all these scholars in the UK that were writing about fuel poverty. Okay. Which is this concept of the inability to afford your energy bill paying more than ten percent of your income on energy. And so that kind of started me on this trajectory to kind of understand access to energy, um, understand energy affordability. And so I started it from the energy efficiency perspective, which is when we think about our fossil based economy. And so that is coal and natural gas. Okay. We now know that that really impacts our climate, right? The impact of burning fossil fuels has this great impact on global warming. Um, and all these other issues that come from that. And so when we talk about alternative energy, some of it is renewable, some of it is not. Okay. Um, and so alternative sources are things like nuclear, which have less of a carbon impact on our climate, um, biomass. So things like um, dung or waste from wastewater treatment plants. Okay. Um, but then there are the renewable sources like wind, solar, geothermal. Um, and so I guess an easy way to think about renewable energy is something that can be replenished daily, but our fossil fuels, like coal and natural gas, were created thousands and thousands of years ago, and those resources are finite. And so they will run out and they also have an environmental impact. Thank you. That's really helpful. And so there is still some impact on the environment with renewable and alternative energy sources, but not the same not the same climate impact. Yeah. So we have these other environmental issues that we must address, right? Sometimes are kind of left out of the conversation. Okay. But when we're trying to address our greenhouse gas reductions. Mhm. These alternative and renewable sources are viewed as better. Okay. So Mary, in terms of energy burden, can you talk a little bit more about that? Yeah, yeah, it definitely relates to what Tony was saying. Essentially, when when we talk about energy burden, we're talking about the percentage of a household's income that they spend on energy costs, so electricity, heating and cooling typically, at least from what I've seen, if a household's percentage is above six percent, they're considered energy burdened. So with, you know, disinvested urban communities like the ones that new CC serves, um, they already have limited income, right? And so they're already making hard choices about how to spend their money. AM I going to pay my electricity bill or am I going to buy my medicine, that sort of thing. And um, the, the households that we serve in our census tracts, um, have energy burdens from six percent to twelve percent. So, um, you know, even even the households that are doing quote unquote, well are still considered energy burdened. So why are communities of color disproportionately impacted by rising energy costs? There's a statistic called the energy and security measure. So the Department of Energy does a household energy consumption survey. Residential Energy Consumption survey recs every four to five years. And so in twenty fifteen, it highlighted that one in three American households face some type of energy insecurity, whether that's the inability to pay their monthly bill, keeping their home at an unhealthy temperature, too hot or too cold, um, or making that choice between paying their bill and some of the other costs that Mary brought up. Sometimes we call that heat or eat people choosing between heating their homes or buying food. And so that survey was done again in twenty twenty. We saw similar stats that, uh, you know, a little reduction because we had some moratoria for shutoffs during the pandemic. Okay. So it was about one in four households because some people were like, well, my utility is not shutting me off, so I can still afford it. Um, but as soon as those were over, those numbers went up again. Um, and so one of the challenges that we find in communities of color, housing quality. Um, and so that relates back to housing consumption, redlining. Um, so those issues still persist. Um, and cause people to live in poor quality housing. Um, a lot of renters. Um, and so people are unable to make choices to improve the efficiency of their homes. Okay. Um, and then rising rates. I mean, we have to address that, right? Yes. Even as people, um, try to do things to make their homes more efficient, reduce consumption by cutting back. Um, they can't keep up with the way that rates are rising. Um, and so what you see is that, um households of color, low income households, senior households, people on fixed incomes are really struggling when it comes to affording their energy bills. And we're seeing rising rates across the country. Across the country. Yeah. So it's not just an issue here in Michigan. I was just in South Carolina, um, last week speaking to the public service commissioners there, who are the ones that vote on the rates that utilities set or approve the rates that they request. Um, and they were calling out like, yeah, what do we do to, you know, stop the rise of rates? Um, but we're also building new infrastructure, right? And so it costs money to do that. Um, and I think folks are learning more about energy rates. Okay. Um, it's an equity perspective, right? Because we all share in the cost of our energy infrastructure, right? But a dollar for one customer is not the same as a dollar for another if they're struggling to pay that dollar, right. And so what I am optimistic about is that more people are talking about it, um, in ways that I haven't seen in the, you know, decade and a half that I've been doing this work. Are people advocating for lower income communities to pay different rates or lower rates, paying rates at different levels? Is that something that advocates are pushing for? Yeah. So there's a lot of movement, um, both here in the US and across the globe on um, percentage of income payments. Okay. Um, okay. People are thinking about if six percent is considered, uh, kind of the affordable energy burden. Um, could we have policies in place or plans in place at the utility level where a person pays six percent or less? Um, that may also mean that higher income folks are paying a higher proportion of their income, right? Um, I haven't seen a lot of programs that have shifted additional burden to higher income. Okay. But we have seen some pilots in Illinois and some other states, uh, in the Midwest and Great Lakes that have tried. And on the East Coast that have tried percentage of income payments. So the jury is still out on if those work, if people are still able to afford. Because the challenge is people aren't increasing their income, right. And so as rates continue to rise, incomes are not keeping up. So that's why energy efficiency and renewable energy could also support that because you kind of reduce the consumption, um, and hopefully bring the cost down. When I was at Department of Energy, because we had the justice forty initiative, um, a big part of that effort was to ensure that forty percent of the benefits of our clean energy investments went to disadvantaged communities. And so, um, some of the programs like grid repair, grid modernization, ensuring that that would occur in disadvantaged communities. We did see an effort to address some of these disparities that have been recognized for, you know, for years. Mhm. So speaking of solutions, new CC is involved in a lot of important work that's providing solar to communities that you serve. Can you talk about the the work that you're doing? Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for that question. So, um, new CC is working to establish what we are calling a community Energy Alliance. It's through our solar neighbors program. And, um, essentially the alliance is, um, framed as a self-sustaining trust. Um, that is community owned and community operated. Um, so we have modeled ourselves after, um, the community land trusts, new CC as the founding organization runs the day to day operations of the Alliance, but it has its own governing board that is made up of community members. And, um, the board, um, basically makes decisions about how the trust, the funds in the trust are utilized and operated. The funds in the trust are used to install solar on trusted community hubs like churches, um, nonprofits, local businesses that are well known throughout the community. Um, and then the hub leases the electricity or leases the infrastructure, um, from the Community Energy Alliance. Okay. And then the alliance basically uses the proceeds from those lease agreements to, and reinvest them into the community, either through direct payments to households. We can't give them credit on their utility bills, but we can cut them. A check for that can help pay for a percentage of their utility bill. Our long term goal is to have the trust rolling over enough income that we can install, actually install solar on individual households. Right. So that we have this sort of distributed network of solar that is truly owned and operated by the community and, and perpetually owned by the community, so that the revenue, the income, the, the benefits never leave the community. So is this a new type of structure? This community solar trust community solar is not a new idea. Um, the traditional model of community solar as new CC has understood it. Um, is that it's still very unattainable for a lot of folks in the communities that we serve. For the traditional community solar model, you have to buy a share in that solar, right? So even if you're not getting the solar on your household, you don't have to own a home to get solar. You don't have to pay for the system up front, but you still have to buy a share for households who can't even pay their rent and buy food. That's not an option, right? Um, and the other thing is that a lot of community solar projects are still owned by utilities, right? And so there's still subject to the same rising rates that we see constantly from, from the IOUs. Um, and so even if you have a share in a traditional community solar project, you don't, you're not guaranteed that your rates aren't still going to go up right when the utility decides to raise the rate. So so this model that we are developing and still working out a lot of kinks. And to be honest, um, it cuts out that need for upfront funds from the households. And it, it provides a, a layer of protection against the increasing utility rates. Okay. You are initially starting with a church site. Yes. Okay. Our pilot site is um, prayer temple of Love Cathedral in Highland Park. Okay. Can you talk a little bit about that project, how that's gone? Oh yeah. And, and then when you think you might get to residential. Yeah. So I just want to give a shout out to Pastor Rick from Prayer Temple of Love. He has been the most patient, um, man in the world who has stuck with us? Who agreed to come with us on this journey to be our pilot site. Um, we initially got funding for this project for this pilot site. Um, through the Community Power Accelerator Prize. Um, that was in twenty twenty three I think. And so it's now twenty twenty six and there's still not solar on the site. Um, but we've done a lot of, of work that we didn't know we would have to do going into it. Um, the church itself is very old. Um, so rooftop was not an option. We knew that we, we didn't have the funds to replace the roof in addition to getting solar on it. There's a lot that adjoins the church that's perfect for, um, for ground mount system, but the lot's not owned by the or was not owned by the church. Right. And so the way it works in Michigan, you can't have solar at one address providing energy to a facility on a different address. So we found the landowner of that lot. He owed a ton of back taxes to the city. So we made an agreement with him that he would sell us the lot for a dollar if we paid all of his back taxes. Okay, so new CC fronted the money and now has an agreement with the church where they are, um, slowly paying us back for that land. So now we have the parcel. Then we had to go to the city council to get the lots joined. Okay. Um, which sounds like it should be straightforward. It was not, I think it was seven or eight months later, we finally got the lots joined. Okay. Um, so we signed, um, a contract with a solar company in March of last year of twenty twenty five. They came out to do a site visit in June. Um, they came up with a design for us, um, submitted it to d t e for the interconnection agreement. Um d t came back and said basically the electrical infrastructure at the site is out of date, completely outdated. You're going to need to dump forty thousand dollars to upgrade the electrical infrastructure. Um, so we are now at the stage where we have an electrician working with the d t planner to identify exactly what electrical upgrades we need to do in order to get it up to code so that they will approve the interconnection agreement. Um, and then we can move forward with getting solar on the site. Have you seen Tony? Have you seen these projects happen nationally? Yeah. So Mary just pointed out one of the major issues with what we try to call the just energy transition. So this idea that when you asked earlier about alternative energy, renewable energy. Right. Um, we know the literature tells us and reality tells us that people with access to that type of energy, um, have higher incomes, uh, live in wider communities. Okay. Um, and so one of the challenges in urban communities, rural communities with lower incomes, is that we haven't upgraded the infrastructure to be able to accept or connect to these new energy technologies that are better for the environment and better for people's wallets. Um, and so when you try to do these projects, you find out, oh, we need to upgrade the substation or we need to upgrade the wiring or, um, we need some other type of infrastructure to be built in that community. Right. for it to take solar or take wind or take geothermal. Um, and so some of the money in the bipartisan infrastructure law that was passed by Congress in two thousand and one, um, again, was grid modernization dollars, um, and trying to use the Justice40 initiative to ensure that that money went to communities who needed the upgrades most. Right. Um, was a big part of that, um, that rollout. Um, but we also recognize that the need is so great, so much of our energy infrastructure, um, is outdated has been, um, under maintained. Um, and we just haven't made that investment. We built a lot of new infrastructure, but that's primarily been for our suburban expansion. Right. Um, and not going back to like our older communities, uh, more urban communities. And so a lot of times when people ask this question about, well, why are rates going up if we're saying we're paying for infrastructure? It's really because we're building new infrastructure, right? We don't really, um, pay a lot for upgrading infrastructure. Okay. I think here in Michigan, um, particularly with the duration of outages, the increase in outages, um, the Public service Commission has um, enforced that utilities actually do these infrastructure upgrades. And so, um, we're seeing a lot more resources go into infrastructure upgrade in urban communities. Okay. Um, but again, we're also paying that cost, right as ratepayers. Um, and so now we're paying for new infrastructure that's being built, um, for something like data centers, right? In addition to infrastructure upgrades in communities that are experiencing outages. And so, um, the more we learn about, you know, why we pay the rates we do, right? I think we'll allow us to have a fuller conversation, um, about the overall, um, energy grid. Yeah. In ways that again, we haven't before. So who are the policy makers that need to know about this in order to. Yeah. Make sure that, uh, money is being spent for these changes. It's so interesting. Um, I think one of my kind of naive moments of being at the US Department of Energy was that I thought we were setting federal energy policy. Right. But there are fifty two individual agencies that regulate and govern our energy system because it's done at the state level. And so these public service commissions, public utility commissions, or, you know, in other states, they have different names. Mhm. And so trying to get all of them to agree on kind of like what the national standards should be for our grid is one thing. Um, but they're responding to the needs of their own states, the utilities in their states. And so when we think about the policy makers that we're trying to influence or, you know, highlight issues with, it's at the state level. Okay. Um, your local government may support in some of the kind of policies that make it easier to do the things that Mary was talking about, like, you know, combine two lots. So you can build solar on a lot. Um, but it's really these public utility public service commissions who are in some states appointed in some states, they're elected. Mhm. Um, there's a lot of advocacy now around educating people on this very powerful body that, you know, most people never think about. That's right. It's been like a passion project of mine over the last five to six years to like, really get people to think about, um, that commission here in Michigan, we have three commissioners, right? They're appointed by the governor, um, with kind of, um, offsetting terms. And so you never have like a whole new commission. Um, but they're so powerful. Absolutely. So then how is energy policy set in Michigan? The governor, you know, kind of lays out their kind of energy policy framework that is then passed to the legislature. Mhm. Who creates energy law? Um, energy policy. Right. Um, and they often direct the Public Service Commission who is directly regulating the utilities, um, to kind of set out the rules that utilities have to follow. Okay. Um, and so what you'll see from advocates is sometimes they're, um, pushing the governor to, you know, think about climate or think about energy access, energy policy. Um, the legislature is also thinking about that because the governor has to sign bills. They kind of, you know, collaborate and negotiate on that. Right. Um, and then it's up to the commission to then take those laws and actually say, okay, utility company, this is how much renewable energy you need to have on your grid. And so, say, if the governor wants fifty percent renewables by twenty thirty, the legislature may tinker with that a little bit and say, we'll go to twenty thirty five. Okay. The regulators ask the utility company to come up with a plan to meet that, and they track and monitor that over time. And in Michigan, has there been a push from the governor to move to renewable energy? Yeah. Renewable energy. Yeah. So we're on a plan for twenty thirty five. Okay. We have the My Healthy climate plan. Okay. Which kind of lays out how all industries across all sectors will actually reduce their carbon emissions. Um, and what you see is that many of our utility companies were closing all of their coal plants. Um, we currently have a coal plant in consumers territory that the federal government has required them to keep open. Okay. Um huh. Which is really interesting because I've heard some estimates that, um, keeping that plant open is costing, um, ratepayers and consumers territory two thousand dollars extra a year. Wow. Um, because they had already planned to shut it down. Okay. Um, and now we have to pay to keep it open. Wow. Um, and so it just shows just, again, as we're trying to work to reduce energy burdens through things like solar and energy efficiency, um, there's still these other external factors that influence rates. Yes, absolutely. So that's really where we need to address energy burden. Has new CC been involved at all on the advocacy technically as a five hundred one C three. We have some pretty, um, what I think are strict guidelines on what we can do. right. In terms of advocacy. Um, this past year, um, we've, we have done a fair amount of engaging with, um, the legislature and the MPs. We had a, um, a grant through the solar for all program that was rescinded. Um, and so we had the opportunity to go, um, to Lansing and testify before the Senate, um, Committee on Energy about that and how that had impacted our communities. Um, and then we also had the chance to, to talk to, um, the attorney General, um, you know, before she joined the lawsuit. Okay. Um, as well, we've had several conversations, um, with the Michigan Public Service Commission. Um, I think something Tony kind of alluded to is, um, when, you know, the legislature kind of sets these laws and the mpsc enacts them. There's a lot of times there's there's like gray areas, right? Where it's if, if it's not explicitly stated in the law, how the MPs interprets it might be different than. Um, so we've, we've talked to them about, you know, well, our reading of this is maybe a little different than, than your reading of this. Um, I wouldn't call it advocacy, but um, conversations, engagement, education, understanding. Yes. And as a tax exempt organization, you're very limited in terms of the lobbying that you're able to do. But, um, education is definitely allowed and, and necessary. And you talked about the solar for all grants that you lost. So how much was that for? And how did that impact the work that you're doing? Yeah. Um, so, um, it was called the solar for savings here in Michigan, my solar for savings. Um, and we hadn't actually officially signed a contract, but, um, we were slated to get, um, just under a million dollars, um, and definitely slowed things down. Our plan with that money was to put solar on, um, two additional hub sites. We were gonna get them new windows, get them new roofs, you know, do insulation so that it wasn't just solar, but it was the whole facility, right? Was healthy for the households that we were gonna help with that it was going to be fifty plus households that we were planning to give thirty percent of their electricity bills. That's devastating, you know, and, and I mean, we hadn't lined up the households yet. We, you know, had never made promises to any individual. Um, but to think about the loss at that level is um, is devastating. And those fifty households were in Highland Park. Yeah. So the, the additional two hop sites, um, were also houses of worship in Highland Park. And so our, um, the target households would have been directly surrounding um neighborhoods. Okay. Um, so how can people get involved in new CCS work and, and the work that the CS clinic is doing? Yeah. Well, I would be remiss if I didn't say, you know, if you've got a million dollars to donate, um, feel free. Okay. Um, but, um, you know, for folks who live in, um, North End, Hamtramck and Highland Park, um, reach out to us on our website and we are always looking for folks who are interested in being guinea pigs for our our solar initiatives. We're looking for folks who want bike stations in their neighborhoods. Um, I know we focused a lot on, on the renewable energy, um, in this, in this conversation, but, um, we have our, our pollinator habitats. We're looking to install four more throughout, um, Highland Park and we, we need residents to want those. And, you know, we, we don't, we don't want to just come in and say, we're doing this. And the city said it's okay. So, um, you know, if you have a space in your neighborhood that you think would be good for one, let us know. Um, we also have our equitable internet initiative, um, which is completely separate from, um, the, the environmental stuff, but um, we provide free internet to households. Um, and if you, if you need internet, um, you know, there's go to our website and there's a place to sign up for it. We don't ask for a ton of information. If you say you need it, we believe you. So, um, you know, let us know. So Mary, please share the website so people know how they can reach out to you. Absolutely. It's my m y new c c n e w c c dot org. So what about your work? How can people get more involved? Yeah, there are a ton of ways, um, to engage with the sustainability clinic as well as, uh, me and my research because I view myself as a community engaged scholar. Um, but, you know, address the clinic first. Um, we have office hours that people could reach out to us. Uh, sign up for office hours. So NGOs that are either, you know, trying to get into the sustainability and climate space or have a sustainability or climate issue that they would love support on. Um, they can reach out to us at keys dot uu dot edu slash clinic. Okay. Um, we also have something we call the sustainability Help Desk. Um, which is like real time support, um, where folks can reach out to us through the website and it has our phone number on it and you can call and get, um, you know, kind of like a geek squad at, um, to just, you know, answer any question that you might have that we can answer kind of on the fly. Um, and then another opportunity is called sustainability assistance. And that's where we provide, um, graduate student support. Um, one graduate student up to one hundred hours of support from that student to help with a specific project or help you do some research. Um, and so trying to offer kind of those three resources come to our office hours, call on our phone number or, um, getting us sustainability assistant student. Um, and then for my research, I'm always looking for community organizations that have data that want data analyzed, um, or thinking about data they want to collect. Um, and so we could create a research project together. Um, really trying to either identify energy inequities, disparities, um, or evaluate, um, projects and programs that communities are trying to do to measure the impact of those projects. So, um, so I'm always open to, yeah, finding new partners, finding new clients for the clinic. Um, and then we're also trying to bring people together. Right, right. You know, learning about new CC yeah, there are other organizations that are doing similar work or can learn from them or they can learn from. And so, uh, the clinic is also a space for, um, you know, kind of shared experiences. Um, because I think that was one of my takeaways from being in the federal government is that when I could review applications that were coming from all across the country, I was like, wow, this group in Virginia has a very similar idea to a group in Washington. Right. And, you know, they're miles away, don't know about each other. And so if we can do that here in Detroit, um, I think that'll make us, um, much more aligned on our sustainability and climate efforts. Well, hopefully this connection here between the two of you is fruitful. Thank you both so much for this conversation. This has made us smarter about renewable energy and the impacts on disadvantaged communities. And I really appreciate you sharing your expertise and wisdom and all of the wonderful work that you're doing with our audience. Thank you for having us. Yeah. Thank you for the opportunity.